Kai:

My guest today is Derek Wang, the Director of Communication for NASA’s Space Technology Mission Directorate and longtime NASA employee. Derek has served in numerous communications and outreach capacities for the administration, beginning as an outreach coordinator at Marshall Space Flight Center and later shifting to NASA headquarters. Derek, has spearheaded national exhibits, products, and campaigns to boost awareness of the agency’s mission and its contribution to the American public. In fact, for a few of those years, I had the distinct privilege of working with Derek on campaigns like NASA’s interactive lunar exhibit.

Derek, you’re an old friend of mine, so I am very excited you’re here. Welcome to Brilliant in 20

Derek:

Thank you, Kai. Thank you for the invitation. As you know, I was like, after you gave me the invitation, I got very nervous. And to your point, you’re like, Why is this guy who is the director of communication nervous about communication? But as you know, I’ve always been behind the scenes and really appreciate the opportunity to talk about the things that we’re doing today in front of a camera, I guess.

Kai:

Absolutely. And it’s one of the reasons I’m excited you’re here as a fellow communications professional. I very much empathize with that. And I like the fact that we get to get two of us in front of the camera and the microphone today. So I think a lot of people would hear your job title and think that you probably have one of the coolest jobs in government. So it’s Director of Communication for NASA’s Space Technology Mission Directorate. So, do you have the coolest job in government?

Derek:

I think I do, right? I think a lot of I mean, the card when I hand out the business card it goes a long way when you see the NASA meatball on there. But the reason the job is cool is because I have some really great people that work with me and alongside me, right? So we do some really great things. We focus on communications either to the external audience or I would say the public and we also look at communications internally, right? Because if we can’t talk within our own community, how are we going to be able to explain what we’re doing to the public? Right. So we work on that. We focus on some of those communication messaging. We look at strategic products that may go out to our internal workforce or our external audience, as mentioned. And another big piece of what we do in our office, as well as the education side of the STEM side, as you know, we always have to prepare our future NASA employees or get them hopefully arm them with some really good knowledge and get them really interested so we can also look at building our future workforce, because if we want to get to the moon or sustain a human presence on the moon and eventually go to Mars, hopefully I’ll be around to see that kind of stuff. But you know, my kids, your kids, you know their kids, kids are probably going to be the ones that will actually get hopefully will be able to accomplish that.

Kai:

So this is all I mean, this is NASA, this is rocket scientist, this is The Martian. This is what everybody thinks of like ultimate technical scientific environment. So do you have that science and technology background how did you how did you get into this? Because this has been your whole career, right?

Derek:

It has. And as you know, we started our career together, our very young career together. Doing a lot of these things by talking about how are we going to get humans to the moon and beyond. Funny story is I do not have a technical background. I do have a degree in marketing. But as we know, communications and marketing, we do. We don’t. We always said NASA we don’t market, we don’t promote or advertise. But what we want to do is inform and build advocacy about the things that we’re doing. Right? Not a lot of I mean, not everyone is going to believe in the things that we’re doing as any or government organization, but as NASA. But luckily for us, we do have a lot of positive supporters for NASA and the things we are doing right, because we have not just human exploration, we have planetary, we have science missions. We have aeronautic missions. And the technologies that we develop all the way from where we are living today to basic technologies that may have spun off from NASA to what we are going to look for in the future. Right.

And so the technical background, I do not have, but I work with some really great people or I sit and listen to some really smart people way above me who can help explain some of the things that they’re doing. And maybe as not as as I would say, public consumption as we would like it to be. But what we do is we take that information and try to make it as more palatable for the public. And sometimes I even need to ask those  smart people that work here, NASA, can you I won’t say dumb it down, but could you make it a little more general for me so I can better explain that to the public as well too? Because we did some really great things and they get so enthusiastic. It’s just really exciting to see when a scientist or an engineer has tested something or is really excited about an upcoming mission that they just they try to explain it and they get really, really technical. So I try to bring that back, make that information a little more digestible as mentioned to the public. And so we can also excite the public with the things that they are doing and the things that we want to do. As well in the future.

Kai:

Yeah. So you’re doing a little bit of the translation there, right? So you’re bringing sort of the public perspective, but you have that that extensive background at NASA. So you can understand some of it, but that can bring cultural challenges, right? You’re coming at it with this I won’t say you are not non-technical. You have been at NASA for so long that you do have a natural understanding of a lot of what they’re talking about. But you’re coming at it from more of the public’s perspective, possibly Congress’s perspective, our legislators’ perspectives right and you’re listening to these folks who really do have these extensive engineering careers, scientific careers.

They look at things differently and they think about things differently. Tell me a little bit about how you bridged those gaps. If there are some differences in how they’re communicating on a daily basis, how do you bridge those gaps between your team and the more technical teams? Do you ever run into any challenges there?

Derek:

Most definitely. Right? Even if you recall when we first started, we were I would say we were young and fresh and very excited about the ideas we wanted to bring into the culture of NASA. And if you recall, we ran into some roadblocks and challenges because, again, that’s a cultural difference, right? Where a lot of the people when we first came in or when I first came in, there was a lot of the Apollo more Apollo experts, right. Are people who are part of the Apollo generation who have been building spacecraft or who have been working with human astronauts who are a part of the shuttle program that have been really successful in the ways that they’re critically thinking about how they’re doing the engineering and the science. And with that, though, a lot of times the communication that we thought that or the missions or the things that they were doing, sometimes they struggle with that communication effort. Right. So we tried to come in. We came in and try to help with that. But trying to also connect and really show the relevance of communication in a strategic manner or saying the right thing to the right audience is really going to help their mission and their success. Right.

So I think trying when we first came in, trying to help build that trust, right? Build the reputation that our communication office is here to help. We are here to help expand maybe your research and your study and we are able to maybe garner more attention and more excitement for what you’re doing. So as we have the communication, the way we communicate generationally and my experience has been here, that’s some of the challenges we still have today, right? Because then I have another set of new communicators coming in who are learning different things. And just think about when we first started, we didn’t have social media. There was no such thing as Twitter, right?

Kai:

Actually, the iPhone came out while we were working together. You got one of the first iPhones.

Derek:

Yes. The iPhone and the iPod. Remember, we’re like, what is this? And then we’re even when we first started Twitter was like, let’s talk about this. And they’re like, there’s no way NASA would not you know, they weren’t sure what Twitter was. And we had what MySpace and Facebook were the big social media like cool things then. Right? And it’s now I’m learning with the new generation or the next generation of communicators that are coming into NASA, right? So trying to bridge again that gap as well, too, because again, I’m stuck in or I have a knowledge of how we used to do things or how we’re doing things or bringing in a new perspective allows takes a little time to make sure we can execute it properly. Also making sure that we do not break any laws because new platforms, new things require there’s a lot of governmental communication and record keeping that we must adhere to. And a lot of the new platforms, they don’t have that built in within their infrastructure yet. Right? So we have to look at that but I’ve really in the past several years really have grown to appreciate even more. Right, the new generation of technology and thought process within communication so we can expand the way we talk about our missions.

Kai:

That’s awesome. Great, great insight. So you threw out at the beginning of our conversation, you were talking about your business card and you mentioned the NASA meatball. So I’m about to ask you a question about branding. And I want you to share with everyone what is the NASA Meatball?

Derek:

So the NASA meatball is I think everyone’s most familiar is the insignia that we have, right? It’s the blue crest with the NASA in it. And then it has the vector. And so we call that the NASA meatball, because before we had the NASA meatball, we had this thing called the NASA worm, which is many people are familiar with. It is spelled NASA in an in a reddish orange, basically connected font. We used we use that for a while. We changed over to the meatball. And that’s the biggest I mean, one of the most recognized brands in the world. But now a lot of nostalgia has been brought back and a lot of new vehicles and things. Other contractors and commercial companies that we work with wanted to bring some of that, the NASA worm back to sort of build that excitement to also connect with some of the previous generations who were part of the Apollo or part of the shuttle. And so now we have two logos that we use interchangeably. But for the most part, the brand for NASA is the blue NASA meatball.

Kai:

I love it. And for those of those of our audience who are actually watching the video of this, it’s right over your shoulder, too, is the NASA meatball.

Derek:

So we have there we have it there as well, too.

Kai:

So I love that little bit of branding. Branding nerding for a couple of minutes. So so talk to me about that. I mean, NASA is massively recognizable anywhere in the world. And a lot of your colleagues in government throughout the federal organization might be trying to kind of cultivate a brand or cultivate a marketing campaign on their own scale, maybe even just within their own teams. So when you are creating a campaign and I know one of your campaigns just won an award, so congratulations on that. What are the things that you look for? What do you what do you think about?

Derek:

So of course, the biggest thing that we look for, right, is a really a return on investments, right? If you if you think about it, we are actually using taxpayer money to talk about the programs. Right. We are very fortunate. NASA as an agency are allowed to be able to actually have these public engagement activities to talk about our scientific data research that we are actually requested by law to actually make sure we disseminate to the public. So luckily for us, we’ve been able to do that. And the way we do that varies. Right? And to your point is what we look at from very strategic in our communications and efforts is for my office or for my side of the house, is really the return on investment. And what I mean by that is how can I develop a product or how can I create an event or create a web feature that is will be received or be viewed or read or touched or attended by the most widest audience possible. Right. And then also now we learned a lot, and especially during the pandemic we take for granted actually how many people are able to access information online. Right. And so I think with what’s… what’s kind of neat now is software that’s being created to create web pages. And, you know, even PDF documents or interactives are really recognizing that bandwidth and accessibility is really still an issue. Right? And we’re learning about that. And so as we develop product, we know in the past two years, when I develop a PDF or develop a web page or an interactive, we have to make sure that people who are using it do not need high bandwidth sort of connections. Right. Because then that’s not making my product accessible to those who may be who do not have the means to have high bandwidth or do not even have it in their area. Right. So thinking about that is how do I create something?

How do we strategize something? How do we partner with somebody who can get our content out to the widest audience possible and into the earlier discussion, making sure that content is relatable, understandable to those who may be receiving it. So we have to cater sometimes our outreach or our public engagement or our products to make sure that we can hit the proper audiences and also make sure that we do not waste taxpayer money in doing that as well, too. So seeking partnerships as always, is really big in what we do and how do we leverage maybe somebody who’s already, you know, focused or investing in certain areas or certain products and how do we can connect with them to be able to expand their message or collaborate on messaging, to talk about missions or talk about things that we’re doing.

Kai:

Great point. So a lot of meeting your audience where they are and taking that into consideration as you’re developing that brand or developing that campaign. Great so you touched on this a little bit. NASA, people don’t realize this, but NASA actually has a very small budget in comparison to a lot of other federal agencies. So you really need to target those resources. How do you do that? How do you prioritize? Where do you decide where you concentrate?

Derek:

Yes, good point. Yes, definitely. The things that you see NASA doing, we operate less than a percent of the federal budget. I mean, it’s about half a percent at this point.

Kai:

Right? So you have to say that again. Less than half of 1% of the federal budget. Okay.

Derek:

Yes. And we’re putting humans in space. We’re discovering new planets and stars. And that’s because of the support that we continue to get from the public for NASA. But just think about the things that we were able to do with that. Right. So but just like any other government agency, we run into budget challenges every year. Right. And even speak frankly, right now we are running into some budget challenges, but we are always very fortunate to have strong support, bipartisan support. Right. We’re talking on the politics side, bipartisan support for NASA. Right. Because everybody understands what we do. It’s the greater good for America as well as the world. Right. And that’s why we have so many international partners, because everything that we do affects everybody else. Right. Or we work together to help change  or advance space exploration or even change how we live today. Right? And so how we prioritize is really, again, looking at what specifically within my mission director, what we call within our area, we specifically want to focus on what are the cross-cutting technologies that will have applications across the agency, but also look at other agencies or contract companies or whatever, where there’s technology that could be expanded within their use as well, too. Right. So we’re not creating a one time thing we’re looking for creating something that will maybe further allow us to further development to advance that technology or that technology can be used for, you know, science applications, human applications. It can be used for farming applications, whatever that may be. And so that’s how we look to make those investments. Right. And then back to from a Com standpoint, taking those whatever those investments are and wherever we’re focused on and trying to figure out who the right audience and the who are the right people to make sure they get that information, to know that, you know, that the reason your crops are growing really well on the farm is because, you know, we we had a software that was used on a telescope or used on a satellite, but now a company was able to take that to be able to better to to mature that software technology and now be able to better forecast crops Right? And so higher yields of growth. To know where erosion is taking place. So you don’t want to plant your crops there because of erosion from the data that you receive. We need to move it over somewhere else. So the higher yields and things like that. So those are things we’ve called NASA’s spinoffs. Right. Or NASA’s technology transfers that where are benefits that actually come and affect us every day here on Earth That actually, coincidentally, was for space research or advancing space exploration or human exploration or science exploration. So being able to talk about those and focusing our strategy around that and informing and educating people about the things that NASA really does as an entire agency.

Kai:

Wow, that is awesome. And I think it’s something that those of us who have been around NASA in any capacity, we tend to know a little bit about spinoffs. But I mean, that’s brand new information to me. And I’m talking to you from Pennsylvania farm country, as you can see behind me. I love hearing that. That’s incredible. So I just want to say again, Derek, thank you so much for joining us. I have loved working with you. It was honestly some of the most fun I’ve had, the most education I’ve had in my career. I learned a lot at NASA itself. I learned a lot from you, too. You also took us to some of the hottest and dustiest places to run our exhibit. So I want to thank you for those educational experiences. But before you go, like I said, we like to keep it surprising. So we have one more question we’re all about. We like hearing about balance. We like hearing about work but we also like hearing about outside of work. And I know your life outside of work is kind of interesting. So tell me, what is your ideal Saturday or Sunday morning look like? You choose which one.

Derek:

Well, that that’s a good question. Depends. Kai, as you know, I am a I might have a big fandom for the University of Alabama which is my school that I graduated from. So, you know, 16, 17 weeks of the year. Saturdays are for football, right? For University of Alabama football. So then the other half of the year is really just I mean, right now, you know, when we first started, it was all football having fun now with family, three kids right. Weekends are spent either me and my wife agreeing who gets to sleep in an extra hour, right when the kids get up. But then during the weekend, itself. Right. Is just, you know, hanging out with the family or trying to get things done that we need to catch up on. But it’s real. I mean, just keeping it simple as much as possible, right? Because again, you know, the past two years, as we talked about or as we’ve gone through. Right, the pandemic has been really stressing on just personal and work. And so during the weekends, we just try to decompress somehow. Right? So if it’s not football, then it’s just letting the kids run out or trying to catch up on some things. What we call the honeydew list. Right. There’s a wife, you got to catch up in the house. But we try to find things that are a little more relaxing. But also, I’m a big foodie, as you know, and I love to eat and drink and try new restaurants and we try and do that a lot. We’ve been fortunate. Began living in the D.C. area right? And there’s new restaurants popping up all the time. But sadly, some a lot of closed because of the pandemic but new ones have popped up. So doing a lot of eating and cocktail drinking is a nice, I guess, passion out on on the weekends to decompress.

Kai:

What’s your recommendation right now for a good D.C. restaurant.

Derek:

So there’s a lot. Right. I think I like let’s go this way. I think areas right now are really big right. So there’s just different areas that are building up. And if you remember when you worked here at headquarters D.C. wharf down the water here was really just boats right and a couple of restaurants. Now, it’s a whole entertainment area. And I was just actually there this weekend. But love the outdoors because you’re you had the feel that you’re by the water not as crowded as like going to Georgetown by the waterfront there. But this allows so I think that’s a nice little cool area to continue to bring a lot of restaurants. But and you know the Mecca of like all food stuff is on 14th Street, all different types of cuisines, all different areas and pockets now have different restaurants. And I always tell people you know, whatever country or food that you can think of that you want to try when you come to D.C., just let let me know and we’ll find it. I guarantee you, because it’s just we have so much variety here.

Kai:

Well, this is exactly why I’m so glad our audience gets to hear why I loved working with you so much. You like to portray yourself as somebody who doesn’t know much. And you’re a space expert. You are a communications expert. You are a technology expert. You’re a food expert. So it’s just fantastic to catch up with you. And I’m glad more people get to hear you.

Derek:

Making me blush, Kai. I appreciate it, but I do miss you, miss working with you. And so you know, I really appreciate the opportunity and yeah. And any time we want to talk space, let me know, I’d be happy to hop on and talk space with you any time.

Kai:

Awesome. Thanks, Derek.