Kai:

Welcome to Brilliant in 20. I’m your host Kai Miller. My guest today is Monica Ager Jacobsen, who is currently an attorney advisor in the Office of the Legal Advisor or L at the U.S. Department of State. And if you think that alone is impressive, just wait until you hear the rest of her bio. During her time at the State Department. Monica has advised on a variety of topics, including genocide, and other atrocities, human rights related sanctions, regimes and children’s rights. Currently, she is in Elle’s Office of Law Enforcement and Intelligence serving as the department’s legal expert on counterterrorism matters, including terrorist use of the Internet and racially or ethnically motivated violent extremism. As well as the legal issues related to hostage taking and wrongful detentions. She is also the department lead on extradition related to Eastern and Central Europe. And Russia. Monica was selected as a finalist for the 2020 Samuel J. Samuel J. Heyman Service to America medals for her behind the scenes role shaping the complex legal and policy issues involved in imposing sanctions against dozens of is an alumna of Columbia University and the University of California Berkeley School of Law, where she served as editor in chief of the Berkeley Journal of International Law. Prior to joining L, Monica: clerked for the Honorable Helene N. White of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit in Detroit, Michigan, and worked as an associate at Steptoe and Johnson LLP in Washington, D.C.. Monica. Welcome to Brilliant in 20. It is a real honor to be speaking with you today.

Monica:

Thank you, Kai. I am so thrilled to be here.

Kai:

So tell us a little bit, you’re an attorney advisor for the State Department. Can you tell us what exactly does that mean? What is your day to day look like?

Monica:

Absolutely. So the office that I work in, as you mentioned, in the alphabet soup of the Department of State, we call ourselves L. We are essentially the in-house attorneys for the department. So any of the legal issues arising out of the operations of the department, either overseas or domestically, Any legal issues that come out of foreign policy questions or national security that the department faces Those are the types of questions that my office answers We also serve as the experts on international law for the US government. So if there are questions about whether or not something’s lawful under international law, we are the people who share the U.S. government’s view. So on a day to day basis, what that means for me is really varies every day and I think some days it can be that I negotiate either the way people think, which is to say sitting down with foreign governments and trying to hash out the terms of a treaty. But it can also be negotiation within the interagency, talking to other other departments, Department of Defense, Department of Justice, the Treasury Department, to figure out how we can identify solutions to legal issues that arise in the US government’s operations.

Kai:

From what you’ve shared and what we heard in your bio, the work you do has an international community. Right. That takes a high degree of cultural awareness. We know that just working within the federal government alone, there are different cultures between different agencies and different organizations. So how do you approach working with people from those different cultures, bringing them together, influencing the way they think? How do you how do you prepare for that on a really real and practical basis?

Monica:

Yeah, I think that’s a great question, and it really goes to a lot of the work we’re doing at the State Department, which is if the US if the US has a view on international law or even in foreign policy, Having it alone, if you don’t have support from other like mindeds, if you’re not able to convince people of the validity of that position, it’s really not. It’s it’s problematic. And so my role in terms of trying to kind of translate those pieces, either the legal pieces or the broader goals that my clients, which are the regional or policy offices that work within state, my job is to try to make sure that we’re able to convey those messages in ways that are culturally sensitive. And I think that really connects to this idea that you need to understand where people are coming from. So whether or not it’s a foreign country or another office within the US government, you have to understand what motivates them and simply because they have a different perspective or a different view. It doesn’t mean that their view is wrong. It doesn’t mean that it can’t also overlap with our view or we can’t find common ground.

But until you understand why they’re coming to the table with whatever position they have or what’s motivating them to, to make a change to language that you see in a speech, or say that they can’t agree to something that you very much want to do. That’s, I think, the most important part that I try to help my clients maneuver as they engage both with foreign governments and with other agencies. Within the US government.  

Kai:

Wow, that’s great perspective. Just the being mindful of where someone is coming from before you open an engagement with them or before you begin speaking with them. And that’s something we mentioned to you off air, reading about you through the Service to America Medals. You’re known for being able to take these really complex legal concepts and make them sound understandable and non-threatening. So can you give us a couple of examples of when you’ve had to do that, and where do you think that that talent comes from?

Monica

Well, I very much appreciate that. I think for a lawyer, there’s no higher compliment than than being told that you have kind of translated a complex legal issue to non-lawyers in a way that they can understand it and appreciate it and follow that guidance. So I appreciate that. I think one example that comes to mind is when I was serving as the atrocity lawyer at the Department of State, I did a lot of advising on genocide. And genocide is a legal term of art. It’s defined in an international treaty, actually, the first human rights treaty that was passed that was adopted unanimously by the UN after World War Two, It’s also codified in our domestic law. Under US law, it’s a crime and it has a very distinct legal meaning. It’s a specific act some specific acts against specific groups with what we call in the legal world, specific intent. So an intent in this case to destroy those groups in whole or in part.

And so, as you can tell, genocide is a very complex legal idea, and it is a very difficult threshold to meet However, for very reasonable reasons, people very much want to use the term genocide to describe all sorts of incredibly horrific and heinous acts that happened around the world. And so in my role as the atrocity lawyer and the legal expert for the US government on genocide, I had to work with clients, policymakers and those outside the government to understand when certain acts may rise to the level of genocide and when. Although incredibly horrific and perhaps other atrocity crimes, such as crimes against humanity or war crimes, they did not rise to the level of genocide. And I think people very much wanted to use the term hyperbolically. They thought that it had a big punch and had a lot of meaning, not just for publicity, but also for victims of really atrocious acts. But in that role, it was my job to try to explain. Here are the legal parameters of what genocide is and here how these facts do or do not fit within them. And if I couldn’t distill down those pieces of what the legal requirements for genocide are, it would be very difficult for me to to convince policymakers that although the term would be very effective here, there would be something that’s that’s lost and using it in a set of circumstances that don’t meet the legal criteria.  Kai: But it’s really interesting to hear how you have to kind of methodically go through and support the use of it and why that is such a critical and important part of the job you do every day. Monica:::: It really is. And I should say the US government, since we signed on to the genocide treaty in 1988, has only used the term publicly eight times. And one of the times quite excitingly was actually this week when Secretary of State Anthony Blinken made an announcement at the Holocaust Museum in D.C. where I am right now and announced that he had determined that genocide had occurred in Burma by the Burmese military against the Muslim minority Rohingya in Rakhine State. And that is a determination I worked on. Those acts actually took place starting from 2016 on. And so it’s been a long time coming but but it is a term that we use quite sparingly in the US government and it really does I think pack a pack a big punch when the Secretary of State is willing to make such a determination. It was very exciting to be part of the announcement this week.  

Kai:

So these are incredibly weighty topics and like you said, you have colleagues there, passionate human rights attorneys. These are things where it, it’s got to feel almost impossible not to bring some of that home with you, to have it really resonate and stick with you. The piece I’m wondering about is how did you get into this field? How is this the path that you chose and what inspired you?

Monica:

Now, it is hard. And I have two young kids. So, you know, to be reading about these atrocities all day, as I think you mentioned at the beginning, I handle children’s rights, hearing about children being…suffering horrible human rights abuses, serving as child soldiers. It’s hard. It’s hard. You come home and you hug your kids a little tighter.  

Kai:

So when you’re recruiting, what are some of the the methods, the things that you look out for to make sure that your candidates are not just technically legally capable, but have a value set that fits in with the rest of your organization?

Monica:

That’s a great question. And I have to say I love all of my substantive legal international law work, but recruiting is really one of my favorite parts of my job, just because it gives me the chance just to be so impressed every time I sit down in an interview, I’m so impressed by these up-and-coming lawyers who are interested in public service and have done such astounding things. But also just as a reminder to me as I tell them about the work that we’re doing in the department and in the office of the legal advisor It’s like a good reminder that this is exciting and this is important. And it’s it’s great to have that opportunity to kind of hear yourself what you’re doing every day as you kind of share that and get them excited as well. So I think for us as lawyers and as attorneys, advisors, that at state, I think the big question that I ask every interviewer that sits down in front of me that I think goes to this values question is is a phrase that our former legal advisor and the former dean of Yale Law School used to use called “lawful but awful.” And I like to ask them what they would do if a client approached them as attorney at the Department of State with a legal issue that that we would call lawful but awful. So for…on a technical basis, it is within the four corners of the law, it is legal, but for whatever reason and there are many, it’s morally repugnant. It creates downstream consequences that could be problematic. It creates a dangerous precedent, even though it would be okay here. It is awful. Something that the department potentially shouldn’t be engaged in and how they would approach that conversation with the client. And I think it shows a lot about how people think of their role, because we are not just attorneys, but we are also advisors.  

Kai:

Yeah. It’s that the gap between the rule and what you can feel might be right. Right. That’s interesting that you have to you have to consider the same thing probably even more so in your role as you’re looking at what’s legal but may not be exactly the right thing for that situation. And don’t worry, we won’t ask you to give away your answer keys Monica:

They can then if they listen to this, they get the job.  

Kai:

Yeah, exactly. Immediately you’re hired. So going along with that when you’ve got your team on board, tell me a little bit about your leadership style, your approach to work every day.

Monica:

Yeah, I think it all relates. I think ultimately there needs to be open communication and there needs to be honesty and transparency about what what the different equities are, what people come to the table with. And people need to be able to have a frank conversation. I always say if there is a problem that you don’t bring to me, that’s an even bigger problem. And so having that kind of open door policy is is really key. Relatedly, I mean, I am a lawyer, so I do like to lay out for for people as a leader, here’s my view. But it is not required that you take it. It is not required that you follow what I do. And so for me as a leader, I think a lot of times it’s sharing what you have identified as the problems, what you think the solutions might be, but letting other people feel empowered to make those decisions. Because I can’t be the expert in all things. I can be the expert in genocide, but I’m not the expert in Burma, for example. And so I can give my best advice. And it’s on me to try to explain it clearly, to explain the reasoning behind it, to have done the research. When I sit down to kind of have the backdrop. But but people ultimately need to be empowered to make their own decisions. And I have to make sure that I’m clear on what my role is, particularly when we’re talking about this gray in between, you know, not not a lawful space.  

Kai:

Yeah, that’s I mean, from what I’m hearing, from you,

Monica:

There is a lot of preparation that goes into almost every day, every meeting for you. So that’s that’s something I’d be curious about. How do you how do you actually carve out your time throughout your day? How do you make sure you have that focused time to read, understand and prepare in addition to all of the Zoom meetings? Monica::: Yeah, I think it’s a daily triage. And, you know, now at least some days I, I live at home and I work at home. So that actually gives me a little bit more space and room, I think, to do some of those longer term projects or that background reading. Whereas when I’m in the office it’s go, go, go a lot of the time. But it’s just carving it out and understanding that that I will be it’s not just for me, but everyone will be advantaged if I’m read in before I come in and sit down in meeting. And so making it a priority. I think sometimes there are times where I just closed my email window for an hour and try to focus on reading something that really needs to get read. And there are times, I think, where I write down my thoughts in advance to try to make sure that whatever I want to convey, I’m able to convey clearly. And I think those are both useful tools.  

Kai:

That’s great. So tell me, this season we’re really focused on rising public sector leaders, so those of you in or around the federal space who are making significant impact You have the microphone right now. What advice would you give to either rising public sector leaders or encouragement? You know, you mentioned earlier it’s a little bit of a different thing to be working professionally than to be working in, you know, in an industry or in the commercial space. Than it is to be working as a public servant. There are special considerations that you make, not just legally, but as a human being. So what are some of the things that you would share to other rising leaders?

Monica:

I think there are a few things, and I think some of them are certainly applicable to those who are developing their career elsewhere. But it certainly really resonates, I think, on the kind of federal government space, which is to say there’s always enough work to go around. There is always going to be plenty to do. That work grows exponentially. And I do think in the government, the prize for winning the pie eating contest is more pie. And I think perhaps that’s a feature, not a bug, but it’s something to know both for yourself, for being able to make space for your personal life, to be able to balance things, to be able to understand within the work what to prioritize. But it also means that there is immense opportunity in the federal government to own your own work, to carve your own path, to identify which issues that are in your purview, that you’re most interested in, that you’re most excited about, and run with them. And so coming from this place where there is just a ton to do for the federal government and not enough people to do it, that is an immense opportunity for you as a young professional to figure out what excites you and to really carve out your own role and your own niche of work that really means something to you. So that’s I think that’s key.

I mean, for me, almost and it’s go back goes back to recruiting when I’m so impressed by the people I’m meeting. I also know that every single person that’s sitting in front of me and all of the colleagues that I see every day could be making hundreds of thousands of dollars at a firm doing other work that may very well bring them bring them meaning as well. But for me, knowing that all of my colleagues have made this decision in their careers and in their life to work for the federal government, to help advance the U.S. government mission, support rule of law, promote accountability, respect human rights, advance respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. These are amazing colleagues. They’re really phenomenal people to work with. And I learn and grow from them so much every day. And certainly you can find that in other spaces. But the process by which people self-select into the government is one that I think just makes you feel lucky to be surrounded by those people. Every day. So rely on them, learn from them, find mentors and follow them around. I always say I take the class for the professor so if you find a good boss who is willing to teach you and who you grow from, that is one of the most valuable things you can do in your career. And certainly within the federal government, there are a lot of passionate people who are very excited to to teach and pass on lessons that they’ve learned and really mentor the next generation of federal government employees.  

Kai:

Thank you. That was you are one of those phenomenal attorneys. We can we can tell just by the stories that you’re sharing and the poise with which you’re talking about your colleagues and you’re talking about the people who are entering public service. It truly is a calling and a mission. So to hear someone speak about it in such a fulfilling way is really an honor. And it’s nice to hear So before we go, I have one more question. And you shared with me that you listened to a few of our episodes. So, you know, there’s a there’s a question that we didn’t necessarily prep you for at the end. So at Emerald One and at Brilliant in 20 we like to balance our work sometimes our very serious work with living life. So tell me where would we find you on a Sunday morning.

Monica:

Yes. I knew this question was coming and it’s very exciting where you’d find me on a Sunday morning is probably at my kid’s soccer practice. So I have two daughters, ages six and three, Josie and Vivian and I really try to make space for them, especially on the weekends because they’re great. They’re growing up so fast and especially with everything that’s happened with COVID they haven’t had as much opportunity to get out there and see the world. So we’re really trying to do that now as we’re able. And so spending time with them, my wonderful husband John, I think one of the key decisions to be able to advance a career like this is having lots of of support from people who love you. And he certainly fits that mold to a T. So spending time with them, trying to break myself with my phone addiction and answering work emails and personal emails on the side. But, but, but whatever it is, you know, something fun with them.  

Kai:

Well, please tell Josie and Vivian we said good luck as soccer as spring soccer season starts.

Monica:

It’s a big time. It’s all a huge win that they didn’t run in here and crash this interview. So I really  Kai: we would have welcomed it. But

Monica:

Thank you so much. It has been a really great learning experience talking with you today and hearing a little bit more about topics the rest of us don’t necessarily even know are going on beneath the surface with some of the things that we hear about. And it’s also just a true pleasure to talk with someone who considers public service such an important mission. So thank you. We appreciate it.

Monica: I really appreciate I really enjoyed my time. And thanks for focusing on these important issues. Kai All right. Have a good day.